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gr00ve
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:54 pm    Post subject: dependencies Reply with quote

i've tried understanding this [dependency hell?], and if i get this right - the system works this way:

install package 1 with dependencies A, B ,C
install package 2 with dependencies C, D, E
install package 3 with dependencies A, D, C

if you would be to try removing either one of A, C or D - none of the packages would work, thus they all must be removed?

so ... take yum remove radeontool - it has like 60 dependencies, removing which would effectively leave you gnome'less - why so?

why on earth NetworkManager, Alacarte, gdm, gedit, gnome*, hal and a load of other completely none radeon vid card related things would depend on radeontool package or visa versa?

i suspect i missed the point at some step?

john maclean
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
 yum info radeontool | grep -i ^r
Release: 2.fc7
Repo   : installed
Radeontool may switch the backlight and external video output on and off.  Use
radeontool at your own risk, it may damage your hardware.


;-)


_________________
BLAG 'em up!
jebba
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: dependencies Reply with quote

gr00ve wrote:
i've tried understanding this [dependency hell?], and if i get this right - the system works this way:

install package 1 with dependencies A, B ,C
install package 2 with dependencies C, D, E
install package 3 with dependencies A, D, C

if you would be to try removing either one of A, C or D - none of the packages would work, thus they all must be removed?


Exacto.

gr00ve wrote:
so ... take yum remove radeontool - it has like 60 dependencies, removing which would effectively leave you gnome'less - why so?

why on earth NetworkManager, Alacarte, gdm, gedit, gnome*, hal and a load of other completely none radeon vid card related things would depend on radeontool package or visa versa?

i suspect i missed the point at some step?


You can watch the horror unfold thusly (on BLAGHEAD):

Code:
rpm -q --whatrequires radeontool
rpm -q --whatrequires pm-utils
rpm -q --whatrequires hal

noldrin
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem from what I can tell is that there is no distinguishing from "could use", and "needs to run at all". You end up with weird dependencies in order to support anything the program might want to do. For instance text mode IM Finch, needs libpurple for the IM interfaces. But libpurple has some stuff for X in it, so libpurple ends up claiming to need X.

This starts to make slack look more attractive, although it seems to make up it's lack of dependency resolution with giving you everything up front.

If we got 50 volunteers who knew the rpmbuild tools, we probably could repackage everything to be a lot more eloquent.

gr00ve
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, thanks for clearing this up!

why the 50 people though? i mean is there absolutely no programmatic approach to automate the clean & lean process?
even though my programming experience is limited at best, and I have 0 experience with rpmbuild tools - what would you suggest to start with when approaching such a problem? [obvious answer is build a system from scratch i guess :) but i guess for this there is gentoo]
i had a quick look through some similar discussions @ rh, they seem to have adopted an approach of report it as a bug and eventually we'll fix it.
i do realize that perhaps for most people space is no longer an issue, since large hd's are very affordable now, but i think when such factors as: update download time, bandwith, having unnecessary packages opens the system up to unnecessary security risks are taken into account - is it not worth to actually do something about it?

jebba
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically in this case pm-utils could be re-built, from pm-utils.spec:

Code:
Name: pm-utils
Summary: Power management utilities and scripts for Fedora
License: GPLv2
Version: 1.1.0
Release: 7%{?dist}
Group: System Environment/Base
URL: http://pm-utils.freedesktop.org
Requires: usermode kbd pciutils >= 2.2.1
Requires: radeontool


Just drop the Requires: line and recompile the package, done.

That said, in this case, radeontool is only 22k, so there's not too much point. But I do sometimes rebuild things to, say, punt samba and a billion deps there from freeeee. :)

-Jeff

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