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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:53 pm 
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jebba wrote:
For my part I don't think slaves should have been bought out either, as that is also offensive. On the flipside, Lincoln is portrayed as someone who's goal was to free the slaves, when in reality his goal was to "preserve the union" and he would have kept slavery if it would have kept the union together.


From one historian I've read says that in negotiations between Lincoln and Davis, Davis agreed to end the war and rejoin the union, as long as the south got to keep slavery. Lincoln told him that this was a non starter.

Many reasons for this existed, slavery harmed the new farming states of the west, tariffs and boycotts in word markets for northern products.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:16 pm 
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noldrin wrote:
From one historian I've read says that in negotiations between Lincoln and Davis, Davis agreed to end the war and rejoin the union, as long as the south got to keep slavery. Lincoln told him that this was a non starter.


I'm not sure what special privilege that historian had to their conversation, but Lincoln wrote this himself:

Honest Abe Lincoln wrote:
If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.


The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/l/lincoln/


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 Post subject: Ed lobante
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm 
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Whereas I have little personal knowledge of this guy, I think someone should take a bat and seriously rattle his cage!!

From his pix, he seems to be too old to be involved in BLAG [albeit I am older]. Is this guy the voice of the "opposition", or what? Do I need to post the berkwalker@whatever.com on my .sig to achieve parity? [I actually have one].

I think [yes, I do] that fewer words and more content might be appropriate..

So - WHAT ARE you actually for/against ElB? Are you just another B/W wasting butthead, or do you really bring something to the plate.

Berk Walker
Morrisville, PA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:28 am 
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How can he be too old for BLAG.. it's based on unix, it's basically from the 70's.. I mean really, it's a great OS for people of all ages. We're just having a friendly conversation about politics.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:32 am 
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noldrin wrote:
How can he be too old for BLAG.. it's based on unix, it's basically from the 70's.. I mean really, it's a great OS for people of all ages. We're just having a friendly conversation about politics.


Hmmm..didn't know that was possible. And, in any case, he wasn't "conversing". But thank you for reading, eh?

b-


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 Post subject: Re: Ed lobante
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:57 pm 
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Location: Athol, Massachusetts, USA
berkbw wrote:
Whereas I have little personal knowledge of this guy, I think someone should take a bat and seriously rattle his cage!!



Are you talking about me, or am I just paranoid?

We have massive disagreements on this forum, it's got nothing to do with blag. It's a great distro. If you want to rattle my cage, go right ahead.

_________________
Ed LaBonte


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 Post subject: Re: Ed lobante
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:02 pm 
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ewl wrote:
berkbw wrote:
Whereas I have little personal knowledge of this guy, I think someone should take a bat and seriously rattle his cage!!


Are you talking about me, or am I just paranoid?

We have massive disagreements on this forum, it's got nothing to do with blag. It's a great distro. If you want to rattle my cage, go right ahead.


I wasn't quite sure either, but apparently he is. I think the language was a bit over the top though, to say the least (I dont think he meant it to sound as bad as it could sound--or i hope not)...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:41 pm 
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Ron Paul has published a new 500 page book about the economy. It is available in dead tree or PDF here:

http://www.mises.org/books/prosperity.pdf


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:48 pm 
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ron paul wrote:
what analysts often omit is that the so-called “trust fund” consists of IOUs from the government. Right now when the federal government takes in more money from Social Security withholding than it pays out to current beneficiaries, it still spends the difference, and “sells” a government bond into the Social Security trust fund. All this smoke-and-mirrors doesn’t evade the fact that the government has made trillions of dollars of promises that it can’t keep.


From that new book which has a chapter on social security.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:17 pm 
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jebba wrote:
I'm not sure what special privilege that historian had to their conversation, but Lincoln wrote this himself:


Thanks for the quote. If that historian wasn't just a crack pot, it might have been at that late point in the war he required near complete submission from the south and was thinking he was not going to have gone through all that was just to have a big bone of contention still in place.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:26 pm 
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noldrin wrote:
jebba wrote:
I'm not sure what special privilege that historian had to their conversation, but Lincoln wrote this himself:


Thanks for the quote. If that historian wasn't just a crack pot, it might have been at that late point in the war he required near complete submission from the south and was thinking he was not going to have gone through all that was just to have a big bone of contention still in place.


Oh ya, I would assume at any truce meetings at the end there was no bargaining about keeping slavery... I was just pointing out the "lincoln cared more about union than slavery" argument.


Last edited by jebba on Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:32 pm 
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In principle I actually do support the idea of government providing for those who are unable to do so themselves. I just think social security has been mismanaged by the government, some because of some defects in it's design in order to universally touch all and the fact it isn't constitutionally defined, that the government was allowed to so horribly mismanage it. Massachusetts state government has it's own retirement plan for state employees that works far better serves as a social security replacement for those employees. This system too has it's problems as we might see if they have too many investments in credit card debt holding this coming year.

I think Al Gore is the only other presidential candidate besides Ron Paul he had a realistic plan to not only pay out current obligations, but to make sure it continues on. Of course he had the luxury of a surplus to aid him.

The one lie often told and is believe widely by my generation is that social security won't be around for us. Their is no real reason for this to be true, once my generation gets there, the population numbers work out. When I went to high school we had a largely unused building that the baby boomers left for us. The issue is getting the boomers through on a worthwhile salary. Immigration would be one.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:20 pm 
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Just to clarify Paul's position on Lincoln: Paul doesn't blame Lincoln for not being a consistent or steadfast opponent of slavery (a criticism I would readily agree with). Regardless of Lincoln's declaration that he valued preserving the union over abolishing slavery in the letter jebba quoted, Paul acknowledges that the war was fought to end slavery. This is not a controversial position--few historians doubt that the objective cause of the war was slavery, regardless of what Lincoln said or thought at one or another point, or in fact what Lincoln ever thought at all. Paul's criticism of Lincoln is that he blames Lincoln for not working hard enough to appease the slave owners, thus forcing the war upon them. Paul thus blames Lincoln for the war and the deaths of 600,000 people.

This is not just a different opinion. This is an outrageous opinion that only an unrepentant defender of the "old south" could love. Though he apparently claims not to remember bringing it up the first time, he must have brought it up at least once, or it wouldn't have become an issue. And after saying something that so outrageous, I don't blame people for bringing it up again. Paul has never repudiated his frankly shameful position, and promotes it when queried.

I don't think that this is a totally insignificant opinion, or that it's unrelated to his other opinions. Perhaps he was pandering to southern whites, but I suspect it has more to do with his defense of "property." For Paul, property has to be respected, period. Set aside any discussion of the degree to which capitalist property in general is the product of plunder, fraud, and exploitation--questions most libertarians refuse to confront--Paul doesn't even appear to acknowledge that even such a naked product of coercion as human slaves constituted illegitimate property. They were sold, they were bought, what's mine is mine, you have to respect it. Again, not even a decent libertarian could hold this position.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:20 pm 
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It's no surprise to me that many soldiers favor Paul on the basis of his anti-war views. Paul's hostility to taxes probably also appeals to their desire to keep "their money." Probably most of these soldiers have never even heard of the other anti-war candidates jebba and noldrin mentioned--Gravel or Kucinich. If they had, then perhaps those two would get more support as well (though it is true that most soldiers tend to be republicans).

While neither of them are perfect, both Gravel and Kucinich are absolutely uncompromising opponents of the war, and neither hold any of the fantasies about the utopian capitalist wonderland Paul promotes. To the degree that they might find problems with social security or other aspects of the social safety net, they believe that the answer is to fix them and fund them better by cutting the military and taxing the wealthy more. Paul, on the other hand, would not only recoil at the idea of a progressive tax on wealth, he in fact repudiates the very principle of distributive justice in general. Though it would not be politically prudent for him to call for abolishing social security right away, he finds the idea of social security itself, as well as the idea of public funding for any social programs such as medical insurance, to be an affront.

Though Paul does call for ending corporate subsidies, he has not, to my knowledge, called for abolishing the legal status of the corporation itself. It would be nice if he did that, but I don't see it coming any time soon.

None of the great anarchists believed that anarchy is possible under the conditions of capitalism. They all thought that capitalism destroyed the prospects for true human freedom. For Paul, however, property and capitalism are the highest ideals. Chomsky is a true anarchist, and he sees Paul as a capitalist ideologue.


Last edited by contents on Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ed lobante
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:23 pm 
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jebba wrote:
ewl wrote:
berkbw wrote:
Whereas I have little personal knowledge of this guy, I think someone should take a bat and seriously rattle his cage!!


Are you talking about me, or am I just paranoid?

We have massive disagreements on this forum, it's got nothing to do with blag. It's a great distro. If you want to rattle my cage, go right ahead.


I wasn't quite sure either, but apparently he is. I think the language was a bit over the top though, to say the least (I dont think he meant it to sound as bad as it could sound--or i hope not)...


Don't be daft! You're not even a noid! [let alone a pair]. I kike you a lot, but dislike those who exhibit bigger butthead tendencies than I

b-


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