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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:22 am 
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regarding: dual booting with XP. I am quite sure that this has been resolved out of the box but I will ask Vasco on Thurs at the next BLAG meet.

Regarding contents on cd: I may be so bold as to suggest keeping the distro in such a way that ppl with older machines can still install, configure and use BLAG with no fussing, caffine or cussing.

[side note: With BLAG I get more out of my battered old PII clones at home than I do with this shiney new PIV Dell, uber-gig, wonder-ram doze box at work :roll: ]

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:51 am 
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A good way to boot from floppy, like i mentioned is smart bootmanager:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/btmgr/

Note: i haven't tried this, although i've gotten it recommended to me several times

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:26 am 
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john maclean wrote:
regarding: dual booting with XP. I am quite sure that this has been resolved out of the box but I will ask Vasco on Thurs at the next BLAG meet.


Good to hear. Say hi to vasco & mike. :)

john maclean wrote:
Regarding contents on cd: I may be so bold as to suggest keeping the distro in such a way that ppl with older machines can still install, configure and use BLAG with no fussing, caffine or cussing.


Yep. This is an explicit goal, which is why I want to turn off needless flashiness which drags things down, add a floppy image (if possible...), and continue to have lightweight window managers.

I notice lots of folks have been asking for fluxbox. I have included blackbox in the past (flux is a fork of bb). Blackbox & fluxbox haven't had a big release in quite awhile (like 2 years IIRC), but bb does have a new -rc release. Should I drop bb for fluxbox? Stick to bb (have you tried it?)? Or include them both. They are quite small.

I've also included evilwm, EPIwm, & ratpoison in the past. If you really want to go minimal, ratpoison is it (107k!). ratpoison is a GUI that doesn't use a mouse. ;)

john maclean wrote:
[side note: With BLAG I get more out of my battered old PII clones at home than I do with this shiney new PIV Dell, uber-gig, wonder-ram doze box at work :roll: ]


Perfect.

-Jeff


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:54 pm 
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These are what I use most in gettin an average system up and running.
=========================================================

* vim (of course)
* sshd (this already there)
* shfsmount / shfsunmount (really useful utiil, can sustain *large* amounts of traffic under a wired network connection)
* smbfs support (not full samba)
* ntfs support (rw preferable)
* links/lynx for those boxes that arent getting X
* apt-proxy -would be *really* useful to have one ready and pre-configured for when setting up whole networks of machines ;)
* vnc-server and vncviewer
* parted, qt-parted, partimage
* mc

Other than the basics not mentioned here, mostly systems need specific software anyways, so including as many modem/NIC driver modules as possible on the cd is probably a better investment in space.

Evolution would be a pity to lose off the 1 CD, as anyone who processes a lot of email will tell you. But hey we can always download it.

Nautilus I do hate it its sooo flaky, and in 2.6 i seems to have lost the address field so you *cannot* type in a location manually, you *have* to browse for it. Of course konqueror is better, but KDE slows the machines we have to deal with a crawl, and it dont integrate well with gnome. Gnome has got the edge in the user-friendly stakes so lets not jump ship to KDE please. Is there any Linux filebrowser out there that does like finder in Mac OSX, the ways it trees subdirs, *very* efficient for file management. That alone will convert Mac users we know. Cant find any screenshots, you have to look at a Mac...

Any chance of including http://www.keithl.com/dirvish/ in the the repo? (not on CD)

Soon as 3k is out, I am just itching to upgrade my 9002! (solid but for USB and cent**o wireless).

Anything else we can fah to to hurry that along jebba?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:05 pm 
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kazim wrote:
* vim (of course)
* sshd (this already there)


Yep. Those'll stay.

kazim wrote:
* shfsmount / shfsunmount (really useful utiil, can sustain *large* amounts of traffic under a wired network connection)


Woah. I just took a glance at this and it looks like a clean, minimal, encrypted, NFS-type-of-thing. Is this correct? Like this thing works well & is maintained? I sure have a lot of NFS mounts I'd like to switch to something stable... Of course this requires a kernel module as well... I wonder why it hasn't been mainlined.

kazim wrote:
* smbfs support (not full samba)


Ya, that'll stay in the kernel....

kazim wrote:
* ntfs support (rw preferable)


You'll have to grab these from http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/

kazim wrote:
* links/lynx for those boxes that arent getting X


Yep. elinks is in there. You should check out w3m w3m-gui too. You can get graphics in an xterm or a framebuffered console (!).

kazim wrote:
* apt-proxy -would be *really* useful to have one ready and pre-configured for when setting up whole networks of machines ;)


This sounds good. Bugzilla it so i don't forget. Also a sample of how you want it preconfigured would be really helpful. http://bugzilla.blagblagblag.org/

kazim wrote:
* vnc-server and vncviewer


30k will have the client, but not the server. You can apt-get vnc-server.

kazim wrote:
* parted, qt-parted, partimage


parted is in there. I did yank partimage, but it could go back. Bugzilla these...

kazim wrote:
* mc


really? It's 1.9 megs of, I dunno, DOS weirdness or something. It's certainly apt-gettable. Does that work? I could stuff it in there.

kazim wrote:
Other than the basics not mentioned here, mostly systems need specific software anyways, so including as many modem/NIC driver modules as possible on the cd is probably a better investment in space.


The driver situation is soooooooooooooo much nicer in 29k. You'll be happy. :)

kazim wrote:
Evolution would be a pity to lose off the 1 CD, as anyone who processes a lot of email will tell you. But hey we can always download it.


evolution plus it's dependencies are something like 20 megs. We're at 646 megs right now. I'm thinking we'll probably go over the 650 meg thing... Have you checked out thunderbird? We could roll evolution back in....

kazim wrote:
Nautilus I do hate it its sooo flaky, and in 2.6 i seems to have lost the address field so you *cannot* type in a location manually, you *have* to browse for it.


control-l (that's L)? Also, I think i'm disabling spatial mode, which is the old skool Mac way (e.g. pre-OSX) way of opening windows. Nautilus has lost a lot of suck in 29k. It's way better than it was in 9k/10k.


kazim wrote:
Of course konqueror is better, but KDE slows the machines we have to deal with a crawl, and it dont integrate well with gnome. Gnome has got the edge in the user-friendly stakes so lets not jump ship to KDE please.


Nope, not gonna jump ship to KDE. /me shudders at the thought of moving everyone.

kazim wrote:
Is there any Linux filebrowser out there that does like finder in Mac OSX, the ways it trees subdirs, *very* efficient for file management. That alone will convert Mac users we know. Cant find any screenshots, you have to look at a Mac...


Uh, perhaps nautilus can be configured to do this? Not sure. I can only vaguely picture it in my mind. I never thought it was all that hot.

kazim wrote:
Any chance of including http://www.keithl.com/dirvish/ in the the repo? (not on CD)


I don't see anyone packaging this, after a quick look. I can see what it's like to package it. Bugzilla... Also, for things that are going to be in the repo but not on the CD, I'm going to wait til 30k is released before working on them (e.g. nvu).

kazim wrote:
Soon as 3k is out, I am just itching to upgrade my 9002! (solid but for USB and cent**o wireless).


Got cent**o wireless running here. :) You're gonna see a different world from 9k. ;)

kazim wrote:
Anything else we can fah to to hurry that along jebba?


Yes! You have a ton of machines there. Just download a recent CD image, pop it in a CDROM, and type "blagblagblag" at the boot: prompt. Try some test 9k->30k upgrades. Find out what is broken/needed now. The more that gets tested, the easier it will be for you later.

Also, sections in the wiki would be great. It'll be hard to release 30k without having /any/ documentation. A simple HOWTO UPGRADE (e.g. type "upgrade" at the CD boot: prompt) or somesuch will get us going. I don't want to release 30k without docs and if I have to write the docs meself, it'll just take longer...

Thanks for the input,

-Jeff


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:30 pm 
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KDE trees sub-dirs. It is not what you are looking for but perfect for those who want to see what a sub-dir tree actually is.

As for Evolution, I would assume anyone wanting Evolution would have access to the net. So it can go in the repository along with anything else a net user would want. That way those unfortunate people who have no net access can get more out of BLAG for themselves.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:58 pm 
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shfsmount gets bit flaky on me over wireless connections, but when the connection frops you simply have to force umount, re-establish it and continue where you left off. Other than that it seems quite robust, I use it on the LAN to back up gigs and gigs over the local network, and it never missed a beat. I will push it a bit harder over WAN and see how it copes realtime, but first tests indicate that it can handle short break in connectivity just like ssh can.

what it will *not* do and i am not sure why is allow editing and changing of files in the mounted folder. pity. but you can just check them out and put them back, so theres a way.

jebba wrote:
ntfs support - You'll have to grab these from http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/

Is there a reason other than size we cant include it? ;)

jebba wrote:
The driver situation is soooooooooooooo much nicer in 29k

ja I tested all my usb externals on 29999, flawless (as in no error messages), unlike debian sarge which develops sector read errors after 20 minutes.

jebba wrote:
evolution plus it's dependencies are something like 20 megs.

* Sure but lets face it, an email client/organiser and a Word Processor all what most folks use computers for. Most people tend to use what they get by default, I think its good to get them straight into the best Linux has, rather than expecting them to get round to installing it by themselves.
* Jasons point is taken about being online for email thus being able to download it though. Only problem is if said customer is setting up computers in khayalisha on 33.6 modem and silly connection costs. Its really the inclusion of the big things that benefit the majority of folks. The little things can be downloaded in a snap. Save on blagblagblagwidth too

Point also taken about the weight of mc, I guess I am just fed up with slow file browsers, but from my first experiments with 3k and nautilus I can almost forget mc again. whew.

jebba wrote:
You have a ton of machines there...

yes well, i have just unleashed 29999.000034 on the refurbishing room. I had to hype it up a bit especially about speed (mainly 300-450Mhz in there its depressing), and if we can get xfce menu'd up and the winmodems :x working, well then I wont get a reputation for spin.. i mean blag er mmm.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:29 pm 
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kazim wrote:
shfsmount gets bit flaky on me over wireless connections, but when the connection frops you simply have to force umount, re-establish it and continue where you left off. Other than that it seems quite robust, I use it on the LAN to back up gigs and gigs over the local network, and it never missed a beat. I will push it a bit harder over WAN and see how it copes realtime, but first tests indicate that it can handle short break in connectivity just like ssh can.

what it will *not* do and i am not sure why is allow editing and changing of files in the mounted folder. pity. but you can just check them out and put them back, so theres a way.


Oh. Well, that's a big deal. What about locking? Like a bunch of boxes all sharing the same mounts? Sounds like it could get messy with shfs. I'm trying to find a way to get away from using NFS....

kazim wrote:
jebba wrote:
ntfs support - You'll have to grab these from http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/


Is there a reason other than size we cant include it? ;)


fkn ms. Extral kernel-modules are a pain, especially when the pain is to support ms... I got a bit burned by this in the past when i popped in a bunch of kernel-module-*.rpm and then my source for them stopped flowing. ;) The size is teeny (81k). It looks like the linux-ntfs guys have been on top of cranking out RPMs for fedora, so i could be bothered to do it... Do the ones @
http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/rpm/fedora3.html

install cleanly? Like not mucking about? Just rpm -Uvh? Tested with 29k? If so, I'll include it...

kazim wrote:
jebba wrote:
The driver situation is soooooooooooooo much nicer in 29k

ja I tested all my usb externals on 29999, flawless (as in no error messages), unlike debian sarge which develops sector read errors after 20 minutes.


I know. I plugged in a wacom tablet and just started drawing. Nothing else. Just plug it in. Wireless is now like `ifup eth1`. Silly nice.

kazim wrote:
jebba wrote:
evolution plus it's dependencies are something like 20 megs.

* Sure but lets face it, an email client/organiser and a Word Processor all what most folks use computers for. Most people tend to use what they get by default, I think its good to get them straight into the best Linux has, rather than expecting them to get round to installing it by themselves.
* Jasons point is taken about being online for email thus being able to download it though. Only problem is if said customer is setting up computers in khayalisha on 33.6 modem and silly connection costs. Its really the inclusion of the big things that benefit the majority of folks. The little things can be downloaded in a snap. Save on blagblagblagwidth too


Ya, but have you looked at thunderbird? That's what I'm suggesting for a replacement for evolution. So it won't be that blag doesn't come with a mail client. Hell, there will be mozilla-mail too. If evolution is popped back in, there will be three mail clients (let alone webmail, which most noobs use). Perhaps it is a bit sudden to yank evolution and I should target it's removal for 40k or something. I could be convinced of that. I'd prefer to leave it out, if possible though. Big & fat...

Hmm. About the organizer thing I'm not sure. Isn't there one buried somewhere else? Do people really use those things? Why don't they just use bugzilla?

kazim wrote:
Point also taken about the weight of mc, I guess I am just fed up with slow file browsers, but from my first experiments with 3k and nautilus I can almost forget mc again. whew.


Good. :) I find `ls` `cp` `mv` way faster than anything...

kazim wrote:
jebba wrote:
You have a ton of machines there...

yes well, i have just unleashed 29999.000034 on the refurbishing room. I had to hype it up a bit especially about speed (mainly 300-450Mhz in there its depressing), and if we can get xfce menu'd up and the winmodems :x working, well then I wont get a reputation for spin.. i mean blag er mmm.


I bet gnome would work fine on 400MHz, as long as it has enough ram, which it probably doesn't. XFCE is so nice for those old boxes....

================================
FYI, since *34, I've made these changes:

29999.00036 - New anaconda (for graphics), new blag-logos, inkscape

29999.00037 - Update errata, re-add mozilla, add NetworkManager, revert to wireless-tools*27*

29999.00038 - rolled DVD

29999.00039 - remove perl-GD, perl-SVG, perl-SVG-GD (needed for inkscape, but comes in extras version).
Updated Obsoletes: for 10k dist-upgrade
Re-added gnome-games, guile
================================

On those old boxes, after they've been running a couple hours or so, the prelinker cron will kick in. This will clobber disk for an hour or so. After it is done, everything will launch much faster. If you want to immediately run the prelinker, you can run as root (do a `ps ax` and make sure it's not running first):
Code:
/etc/cron.daily/prelink


As for winmodems, I'm not sure what the state is. There may be more drivers right in the 2.6.10 kernel, but i dunno. Perhaps you could do some tests? Suggest some RPMs? ....

Also, I hope those dudes are just testing 29999.00034 and not sending the boxes out to anyone... It's still quite a mess right now, but I think we are stabilizing it. I've also rolled new versions of mozilla & firefox, but they haven't appeared on CD yet (but are in repository).

Thanks!

-Jeff


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:08 pm 
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jebba wrote:
29999.00036 / 29999.00037 / 29999.00038 / 29999.00039

Re-downloading this image is caning my bandwidth, is there a way of using rsync to update our isos? I *think* its as simple as setting up an rsync server on your box. I have used this invocation of rsync for syncing with another distro's latest image as it was nearing completion. More saving on blagwidth...
Code:
rsync -avzP archive.ubuntulinux.org::cdimage/daily/current/warty-powerpc.iso /kazim/isos/warty-powerpc.iso


jebba wrote:
Ya, but have you looked at thunderbird?

We distribute the Thunderbird windows client and calendar plugin as the standard doze email client, but I cant get the calendar to integrate with the Linux version, so were using evo. If we can get calendar working well....

jebba wrote:
Also, I hope those dudes are just testing 29999.00034 and not sending the boxes out to anyone... It's still quite a mess right now,

No FEAR. Thats what we did with 9999.999 and it weren't a pretty sight. :oops:

:idea: Clipboard Manager. I use klipper, but it wont integrate well with gnome. Have people found the native gnome clipboard improved much? If not is there another clipmanager that works with gnome that we can include in the repo?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:56 pm 
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kazim wrote:
jebba wrote:
29999.00036 / 29999.00037 / 29999.00038 / 29999.00039

Re-downloading this image is caning my bandwidth, is there a way of using rsync to update our isos? I *think* its as simple as setting up an rsync server on your box. I have used this invocation of rsync for syncing with another distro's latest image as it was nearing completion. More saving on blagwidth...
Code:
rsync -avzP archive.ubuntulinux.org::cdimage/daily/current/warty-powerpc.iso /kazim/isos/warty-powerpc.iso


Is that grabbing new ISOs each day? Perhaps it is doing some sort of diff on it and just getting different sections of the file? I know rsync can resume, but I didn't know it could "patch" files. I have heard of some "differential" iso download tools though. Forget what they are called. I don't have an rsync server running on there right now, but i could get one going.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:34 am 
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heres a howto about the client end, I cant figure the server end... please let us know if you figure it out...

http://cybercfo.gkmweb.com/rsync-mandrakeiso.html


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:03 pm 
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Regarding getting a blag menu going for xfce/blackbox, how l long would that take? I'm prefapred to try a menu for blag for a window manager other than gnome but I'm not sure how much time it could take. I'm sure it's just a matter of editing a file ~/.xfce4/foo, but I'll need advise or at least a few pointers.

KDE for deafult desktop? Woah. I remember the first time I tried knoppix, the menu almost made me wanto to run a mile. Slightly overwhelming, for me :oops:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:55 pm 
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kazim,

Did you want just partimage (269k), or also partimage-server (46k) & partimage-static (715k)? I'll just include the first two unless you have a specific need for a statically compiled version.

I've included qtparted (270k) but it also requires xfsprogs (929k) and jfsutils (270k).

We've definitely broken the 650 meg limit, but have about 20-30 megs free to work with now.

-Jeff


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 11:34 am 
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Kazim, You where looking for something that gives you a dir tree in a file browser? W3m, the text-based browser does just that. At work so can't give you a screenshot.

Lynx gives lists of files in a dir similar to 'ls -l' by default but this can be configured. I prefer working with Lynx as I can edit, move, remove, name and view all files under / very simply. Probably a biased reveiw 'cos I've only used w3m a couple of times.

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